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worldpol/econ, future 

No but, seriously.

For people who deeply and sincerely believe in neoliberalism, what's the plan for getting through the next few decades? What's their model for that the mid-term future is going to look like?

Is the thinking that climate crisis, rising inequality, and splintering of democracies will just... sort itself out?

This is an honest question. If you have answers, fuck, I'd love to know.

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worldpol/econ, future 

I'm seeing a few boosts and favs, but no answers yet.

Understanding what model of the world other people are using is necessary if you want to predict their behavior. I feel insufficient confidence in my understanding of their model.

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re: worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt If you have a twitter (or better yet a facebook you're willing to use), I think that'd be a better place to look.

Our instance-cluster's 'visible spectrum' tends to run demsoc to tankie, and for my own part I'm not on good enough terms with any outspoken neolib to ask.

And I wonder how many beings on here are.

re: worldpol/econ, future 

@Kyresti @starkatt I'm asking a friend who knows a few, and I'm on good enough terms with my parents to ask them, though I doubt the latter have really thought about it past taking on faith that everything will be OK because serious people are working on the problem - though that might be unfair.

re: worldpol/econ, future 

@Kyresti @starkatt Also can I just say that I'll likely never cease to find it entertaining that I'm on the *conservative* end of our shared milieu?

re: worldpol/econ, future 

@Kyresti @starkatt @LexYeen (Granted, that means that I think that capitalism isn't inherently evil, just very dangerously neutral, that bringing down the current order with no idea of what should replace it is too hazardous to be worthwhile, and that I think that orthodox economics is at least worth a read.)

re: worldpol/econ, future 

@fox_news @Kyresti @LexYeen you're probably the most conservative person whose viewpoint I actively seek out :p

re: worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt @Kyresti @LexYeen Listen, I'm a centrist, and I think that both sides have valuable things to bring to the table - right-wing conservatives like Warren and Booker, and the mass of internet leftists that comprise most of the people I know. >:V

worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt If LGBT rights, leaded gasoline, and nicotine addiction are anything to go by, neolibs need to be inundated by these issues for at least a generation before they recognize them as actual issues.

worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt As for what model they are using, I think its a model based on whatever news they were listening to as teenagers.

worldpol/econ, future 

@Aradia @starkatt This, but unironically. Neolibs are small-c conservatives, by and large - worried about change and averse to pushing too far too fast.

re: worldpol/econ, future 

@fox_news @Aradia @starkatt Fuck... I think y'all are right on this TBH.

re: worldpol/econ, future 

@Kyresti @Aradia @starkatt They're not evil; they're not even stupid. They're just subject to the same precarity as everyone else, and without a solid understanding of how things are, let alone why things are as they are, they worry that a universal housing guarantee (for instance) really WOULD break everything. They have exceedingly strong trust in authorities, which doesn't help, either.

us fascism mention re: worldpol/econ, future 

@fox_news @Kyresti @Aradia @starkatt ...we heard someone say they were more concerned about Bernie Sanders than Donald Trump and "exceedingly strong trust in authorities and worry that progressive or socialist policies would break everything" would explain reaching that conclusion really solidly... πŸ¦ŠπŸ’§

us fascism mention re: worldpol/econ, future 

@packbat @fox_news @Kyresti @starkatt Yeah "less change" > "fix our problems" :(

re: us fascism mention re: worldpol/econ, future 

@Aradia @fox_news @Kyresti @starkatt and "actual blatant fascist" is less obviously change than "politician who might make it harder for rich people to get richer".

worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt Metafilter has had some articles on that topic, would you like me to look them up?

worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt I feel like a lot of it is just blind faith in capitalism. It's a system that's worked for them, so it necessarily must work for everyone else as well. It'll lift people out of poverty and solve the climate crisis as technology increases because the economy wills it--they have faith that these things will become profitable, and that the people in control will always act rationally.

worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt Neolibs believe that progress naturally happens no matter what, and that it's always gradual and incremental no matter what, and any disturbance of that gradual, incremental progress is a threat to it, no matter the nature of the disturbance, which is why they see the left as just as much of a threat as the right. We're "agitators" who will demand too much too fast instead of letting the system work as it "always has."

re: worldpol/econ, future 

@Venn @starkatt I think it's less blind faith than most people are inclined to think.

Capitalism has had a staggeringly good track record of progressing economies from "agrarian" to "industrialized" without needing the sort of ugly, violent, and easily-corrupted state coercion leveraged by the USSR or PRC to achieve the same results. Many metrics of well-being have improved across the board (though not evenly,) such as food security, infant mortality, literacy/education, etc.

It's entirely possible (and maybe even likely) that we've hit some sort of impasse where capitalism, having elevated the majority of the world's economies past agrarian development and into specialized industrialization, is not suitable to the task of making any continued improvements to human well-being. But I think neolibs and centrists can be forgiven for thinking that "more of the same" is a viable answer.

I'm slightly to the right of @CoronaCoreanici in that I think markets are a good "default" solution, but in cases where markets have demonstrably failed (healthcare, climate change, the continued development of the internet, governance of firms) we should consider alternatives. It's possible to be pro-market and anti-capitalist. :)

worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt I genuinely don't know, myself, but I come into contact with enough neoliberals to try to model them. I think that they believe that incremental market-based strategies will prove to be sufficiently strong to tackle these problems on their own from the bottom up, a marquee example being carbon pricing.

worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt This might also be why blockchain-based technologies are seeing so much hype - they're a way to turn otherwise non-market-coupled problems into market-secured exchanges.

I think a lot of them also don't think too much about the *allocation* of wealth - they don't quite realize that it doesn't matter HOW big the pie is if some people only ever get crumbs.

worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt At any rate, I'm conversationally fluent in Neoliberal Capitalist, but I doubt that's enough.

worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt it's something something EVs and solar farms and carbon credits and means-tested programs and technology will save us all*

*everyone who's currently being saved by the system, don't think about anyone else

worldpol/econ, future 

@starkatt They flat-out have none. Had a neolib wig out on me this past weekend and one of his major talking points was that nobody, himself included, had any solutions, and any time anyone brought up leftist solutions, he squealed about socialism and something something nazi germany something something soviet russia. That's how out of touch neolibs are.

Neolibs find comfort in imagining themselves powerless to do anything at all, to give themselves a pass to do nothing.

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