BTW, if you are hella gay, or hella queer, or really just a minority in any way (and if you are unsure, there is an easy rule: you are valid, and you are enough) and want to go to 35C3, hit me up for a presale voucher.

Boosts appreciated

(@kit_ty_kate, this includes you)

@kellerfuchs @kit_ty_kate fuck that place though! why would any of us want to go hang out with a bunch of cis guys who don’t give a shit

@scanlime @kit_ty_kate Because I want to hang out with a bunch of other queer trans friends who will all be there, some of whom I won't have the possibility to see otherwise.

Because there are pockets of good folx among the not-always-great community, and because that's all we get in our current world (be it in the fediverse, in whatever online communities, and even more so AFK)

Because trying to make better spaces isn't incompatible with occupying the ones that already exist.

@scanlime @kit_ty_kate Also, I'm not trying to convince anybody to go.

But I want to empower all the folx who want to go, to actually do it. Because it's a small way to subvert the “guaranteed tickets for white German hacker doods” presale system, and a small way to coopt that event.

And, for better of for worse, it's still one of the least-bad events to do that in.

@kellerfuchs @kit_ty_kate Giving people who want to go a way to do so, that seems good.. I just feel like events like this need a huge disclaimer, like "this event isn't actually the Good Hot Shit people tell you it is, if you go you should have low expectations and keep that in mind". Like.. is there a better way to avoid holding CCC up on a pedestal than to avoid it and go to or organize different events?

@scanlime @kit_ty_kate I don't know, TBH.

I don't know what activism is effective, and I'm trying to make alternative happens, and I'm not going to spend a bunch of spoons on CCC.

However, I will happily spend the tiny bit of spoons involved in making sure minorities who want to go can do it. And you are right, the initial toot should have had a disclaimer (though the disclaimer itself would likely have been this massive thread/rant thing?)

@kellerfuchs In my opinion, you are not subverting the voucher-based presale system, but taking part in it. I see it more as a "guaranteed tickets for everyone except white german potatoes who heard about the great lounge at the venue" presale system.

Nobody likes the way the presale is conducted, but there is only that much you can do if the venue is full. Since the move to Leipzig, I'm not quite sure if the voucher-based presale is even needed any more.

@kellerfuchs Disclaimer: I'm massively emotionally attached to the congress and might see things more positive than they are. But I'm quite sure there is no widespread intent to use the ticket presale to keep out foreigners, POC, non-males or queer people. But there are definitely people who hope that it will favour "hackers" (for many definitions of that word), though.

@pyropeter Given that the actual sale sold out in ~15-30 minutes on each wave last year (or am I confusing with 2 years ago?), IIRC, it probably still has a noticeable impact on who can come or not.

I don't know anyone who said that's their intent, but I usually get at best “not my department”, and usually NOTABUG WONTFIX, when I explain it massively favorises closely-connected-to-CCC demographics.

Which is mostly German hackerspace dudes, for obvious-ish reasons.

@kellerfuchs The sale went really quick both two years ago and last year. This was caused by a decision not to have more visitors than the year before because we needed to get to know the new venue. (everyone had lots of ... respect in the face of moving an event with 12k visitors)

The next congress will most probably be bigger. We only used about 50% of the venues floor space last year. I wouldn't be surprised if this years presale was public from the start.


@kellerfuchs Regarding "it massively favorises closely-connected-to-CCC demographics.":

That's the point of it, in a way. Most people associated with the CCC will not see this as something negative, as parts of us are working towards making the group of "people associated with the CCC" a group of really nice people. (Both by excluding arseholes and by including non-arseholes regardless of *)


@kellerfuchs "Which is mostly German hackerspace dudes, for obvious-ish reasons."


We still aim to change that. Dodgers original email explaining the voucher system to our cultish inner circle listed the following groups of people to initially be supplied with vouchers for them to pass around as they see fit:

Angels (people who helped at the last congress), Erfas, Chaostreffs, Chaosfamilie (what you call "closely-connected"), hackerspaces, assemblies from last year, internationals, etc...

@pyropeter “We still aim to change that” ->
That's part of my point.

If it's harder for the people you want to include in CCC (or that we want to include in the hacker community at large) to come to the community's yearly meet-and-greet-and-retrospective, it's harder for them to feel/be included.

“Gated Communities” “Works for me” as long as you want to keep the status quo, and the current state of things is (IMO) not particularly desireable.

(Feeling kinda proud of that witty word, though)

@kellerfuchs Yes, the voucher-based system is undesireable. The problem is that we only came up with one alternative solution for the venue-is-full-problem: Raffling the tickets. This was tried for 28c3 and lead to lots of tears because the tickets were sold in a few seconds and some people had to cancel their hotel reservations/intercontinental flights, people got tickets but their loved ones didn't get any, and so on.

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