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@skquinn @jalefkowit @natecull
Chandler choked and died on this concept, spawned a great book Dreaming In Code. They wanted this super flexible object database model that would allow people to recontextualize any bit of information intelligently within their workflow (e.g. turn a text memo into an email into a calendar event by manipulation of the fields) and organize that information based in object inherited implicit tags as well as user tags.

@Irick @jalefkowit @natecull The idea sounds nice, but it's not like today's tools can't already do that. One would copy and paste the memo text file into an email, and the email program/PIM could make a calendar event (I know Evolution can do this, not sure about others like Thunderbird).

@natecull @jalefkowit @skquinn
the scope got gradually narrowed down, and eventually they gave up the interesting universality of those ideas. originally it was going to support a fully peer to peer database of objects with full peer to peer sharing, etc etc. It was some crazy shit. As the project progressed they got a lot more traditional.

@Irick @natecull @jalefkowit Underneath it all, I bet they were still going to use files and directories though. Of course the user never needs to know about the back end but it is still worth noting.

@Irick @natecull @jalefkowit
If there was a compelling argument to the "bad metaphor," it didn't make it into this tiny excerpt.
And as @skquinn alludes to, HFS (Mac) has forks, NTFS (Windows) has streams, and as far as I know to the extent they are exposed in any way they are a source of pain.

@ntk @Irick @natecull @jalefkowit If all the important stuff is the file's actual data as opposed to a fork or stream or whatever... then what are we supposed to do with these extra pieces on operating systems/environments that don't have a clue about them? And what good are they, really, if they aren't preserved across a transfer between Windows, Mac OS X, and GNU/Linux?

@skquinn @Irick @natecull @jalefkowit
I don't know how much the HFS design was built directly around Mac OS requirements. The resource fork is used for noncompiled data. Why a fork and not another file section or another file? I don't know; it seems foolish to me. Named forks later got used by extended attributes as well.
NTFS supported streams originally for Mac OS compatibility support! I think they are mostly used by malware.

@jalefkowit @natecull @Irick @skquinn Typically if you move them off a native file system the forks are simply lost, with or without warning. OS X 10.4 updated some of the cl tools to preserve forks.

@ntk @Irick @natecull @jalefkowit Figures that on the Windows version, it would mostly be used by malware. I'm not surprised at all, and I'm glad I got away from the dumpster fire that was post-"version number 98" Windows as fast as I could.

@skquinn @Irick @natecull @jalefkowit That's sort of a shame if your impression of Microsoft is frozen circa Windows 98, as they are in a bit of a new golden age now. Hopefully you also acknowledge then that you're not qualified to comment on it either then.

@ntk @Irick @natecull @jalefkowit I have used Windows versions after 98. They have not gotten any better. In fact, it seems like Microsoft has moved things around in later versions purely for the sake of change; it's most obvious in Office, but I had to ask my mom how to get to the Control Panel in Windows 10. And Windows is supposed to be the most "user friendly" of the consumer operating systems, I've been told.

@skquinn @natecull @jalefkowit
No no, they used an 'item' metaphor and it was some crazy, object oriented shit :P
www.immagic.com/eLibrary/ARCHIVES/GENERAL/OSAF_US/O030831A.pdf

@Irick @natecull @jalefkowit There had to be a way those mapped back to files and directories for the rest of the world, right?

@skquinn @natecull @jalefkowit
IIRC it used URI for external reference.
I was 'aware' of files and directories but it wasn't a native part of their data model. They definitely had more of an idea about defining the data along with how it was supposed to be used into a single object that got passed around. It could generate documents, etc, but those were not native paradigms.

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