I understand opposition to cars within cities. They don't belong there without a good reason. But I really don't understand opposition to cars in rural areas if they're electric. There is *no other way* to get around. None. Zero. America is fucking *enormous.* These distances aren't "hard" to walk, they are *NOT POSSIBLE.*

Anyway saying "abolish all cars" is ableist/forced urbanisation nonsense from people who don't understand some people have different needs for transport. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.


"oh Americans are all fat and lazy they get upset if they gotta walk 3 km"

... do you know how far away it is to the next major city for me? Also the state capitol?


Yeah. Let me spend the next 3 days walking buddy. Or take the nonexistent bus or train.

"but Elly how can abolishing cars be ableist? Even people in wheelchairs can take public transit"

Here's a real big shocker for you, let me blow your mind:

Some people have very different mobility needs that cannot be accommodated by public transit. They may have additional needs as well, such as the need for medical supervision, or often they have to be in certain positions.

Some people also have social anxiety and the train/bus can cause severe discomfort and distress.

And how do you propose we transport people to the hospital? Or people between hospitals? Teleportation doesn't exist yet, and if it did this would all be a moot point, now wouldn't it?

What do you think an ambulance is, a rickshaw? It's a type of car.

To drive the point home further:

As a *means of protest for low wages,* teachers here walked from Tulsa to the state capitol in Oklahoma City (said distance of 170km) and it took them *a week.*

It was a powerful form of protest and got people's attention.

Did I mention that 170km is actually fairly close together for two major metro areas by central USA standards?


Cycle 170km? Yeah, maybe if I'm a fucking athlete I'd do it.

And yeah... the climate in the central US is *lethal* to cyclists in the summer in many places. I do not mean "uncomfortable" I mean "this heat will kill you even if you are in great condition."

And the winter isn't much better.

Oh, yeah, people *do* cycle between major cities here like that. For sport. Not even the most impoverished do that. They drive or find a ride to get there.

@Elizafox there's no cars in the sahara. have they tried living there instead?

@Elizafox las vegas is a perfect example of this

there is literally nobody walking the streets or cycling six months out of the year, when the average temperature is in the hundreds and regularly it gets above 110

even standing outside waiting for a bus can be problematic

@KS Oh yeah. And urban heat islands make it worse even in places not Vegas.

Also... the humidity in most of America...

It is terrible.


yeah, I know that people really do say cars should be abolished, but that's utopian posturing and I see arguing against it as tantamount to arguing against a strawman. Places that have reformed their transportation systems have made them much better for public transit, cycling, and walking without *eliminating* cars. They promote multimodal usage through better design, and filter motor traffic, reserving it for those very things you mention.

@deejoe Honestly, I think cars can be an important part of public transit in thinly populated areas where running a bus is extremely wasteful for no good reason... and running a railroad makes even less sense.

Some places are so spread out, even paratransit can't help you. It'll take far too long to get anywhere.


any argument about thinly-spread populations that aren't actual, you know, farmers? Well, it gets it backwards. The cars often come *before* and enable the sprawl rather than the sprawl being the thing that requires cars.

I saw a map once of the pre-war interurban rail system in Indiana and was *amazed* that at one time you could take a train to so many places all up and down the state.


there were old-timey photos at the Iowa DMV I used to go to showing how it used to be basically *impossible* to drive in the spring in the state due to the mud. Same town, though, had a nice big old rail station right downtown. Not that the cross-country trains, about a hundred a day, ever stopped there any more. (I hate the web interface by the way. Redrafted to ungarble.)

@deejoe NJ Transit managed to keep it's right of ways even if a lot of the interurban lines are gone, or currently operated exclusively by folks like the Cape May Shore Line (an enthusiast club that bought their own equipment, effectively a 1:1 scale hobby railroad and not really reasonable transportation for folks who aren't tourists) @Elizafox

@deejoe So, New Jersey could reboot regional rail pretty effectively and cheaply, which they've been kicking around the idea of for years. @Elizafox

@Elizafox Yeah, I draw the line at 35°c and about 20km for a commute. There are people who do ride between the smaller cities here because they have no other option, though that's getting to be less of a thing now that most every tribe has regional transit of *some* kind that's open to the public. That said, rural commutes/errands by bike here is *roooouuuuggghhhh* from firsthand experience.

@Elizafox And a week is pretty good time when you consider that OSM predicts that at about 42 hours nonstop by foot when you take into account the fact that pretty much only warehouse workers are walking that much a day on the regular here.

@Elizafox necrobumping this because i just wanted to gush about how lucky i am to have a grocery store next door and be within a mile of a post office and a bank with an ATM

@Elizafox Well, minor point of order, the next major city that is not within the metro area would be Bartlesville, but that's still 75 kilometers of walking on shadeless expressway on the only viable route thanks to the lack of bridges on Washington County roads. That's far enough from Tulsa that Phillips 66 has 5 flights a day between Tulsa International and Bartlesville Muni.

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